[Computer-go] Zero is weaker than Master!?

Hideki Kato hideki_katoh at ybb.ne.jp
Thu Oct 26 07:17:09 PDT 2017

Xavier Combelle: <62b977d7-d227-a74d-04b7-0d46db6a727c at gmail.com>:
>It is just wild guesses  based on reasonable arguments but without 

Yes, of course. Due to not enough info provided by Google.


>Le 26/10/2017 
à 07:51, Hideki Kato a écrit :
>> You can believe
Of what I understand same network architecture imply the 
same number of
>>> block
but David Silver told AlphaGo Master used 40 layers in 
>> http://www.bestchinanews.com/Science-Technology/1
>> # The paper was submitted in April.

>> Usually, network "architecture" does not imply the num
ber of 
>> layers whereas "configulation" may do.

>> Clearly they made 40 layers version first because it's
>> called "1st instance" where the 80 layers one is called
>> instance."  The 1st was trained 3 days and overtoo
k AlphaGo 
>> Lee.  Then they changed to the 2nd.  Awaring t
his fact, and 
>> watching the growing curve of the 1st, I g
uess 40 layers was 
>> not enough to reach AlphaGo Master le
vel and so they 
>> doubled the layers.

>> Hideki

>> Xavier Combelle: <1550c907-8b96-e4ea-1f5e-2344f394b967
>>> As I understand the paper they directly cre
ated alphago zero with a 40 
>>> block

>>> setup.
>>> They just made a reduced 20 block setup to co
mpare on kifu prediction
>>> (as far as I searched in the pa
per, it is the only
>>> place where they mention the 20 bloc
k setup)
>>> They specifically mention comparing several ver
sion of their software.
>>> with various parameter

>>> If the number of block was an important parameter I hope they would

>>> mention it.

>>> Of course they are a lot of things that they try and failed and we will

>>> not know about

>>> But I have hard time to believe that alphago zero with a 20 block is one

>>> of them

>>> About the paper, there is no mention of the number of block of master:

>>> "AlphaGo Master is the program that defeated top human players by 600

>>> in January, 2017 34 .

>>> It was previously unpublished but uses the same neural network

>>> architecture, reinforcement

>>> learning algorithm, and MCTS algorithm as described in this paper.

>>> However, it uses the

>>> same handcrafted features and rollouts as AlphaGo Lee

>>> and training was initialised by

>>> supervised learning from human data."

>>> Of what I understand same network architecture imply the same number of

>>> block

>>> Le 25/10/2017 à 17:58, Xavier Combelle a écrit :

>>>> I understand better

>>>> Le 25/10/2017 à 04:28, Hideki Kato a écrit :

>>>>> Are you thinking the 1st instance could reach Master level 

>>>>> if giving more training days?

>>>>> I don't think so.  The performance would be stopping 

>>>>> improving at 3 days.  If not, why they built the 2nd 

>>>>> instance?

>>>>> Best,

>>>>> Hideki

>>>>> Xavier Combelle: <05c04de1-59c4-8fcd-2dd1-094faabf38a7 at gmail.com>:

>>>>>> How is it a fair comparison if there is only 3 days of training for 

>>> Zero ?

>>>>>> Master had longer training no ? Moreover, Zero has bootstrap problem

>>>>>> because at the opposite of Master it don't learn from expert games

>>>>>> which means that it is likely to be weaker with little training.

>>>>>> Le 24/10/2017 à 20:20, Hideki Kato a écrit :

>>>>>>> David Silver told Master used 40 layers network in May. 

>>>>>>> According to new paper, Master used the same architecture 

>>>>>>> as Zero.  So, Master used 20 blocks ResNet.  

>>>>>>> The first instance of Zero, 20 blocks ResNet version, is 

>>>>>>> weaker than Master (after 3 days training).  So, with the 

>>>>>>> same layers (a fair comparison) Zero is weaker than 

>>>>>>> Master.

>>>>>>> Hideki

>>>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>>>> Computer-go mailing list

>>>>>> Computer-go at computer-go.org

>>>>>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

>>> _______________________________________________

>>> Computer-go mailing list

>>> Computer-go at computer-go.org

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