[Computer-go] AlphaGo Zero SGF - Free Use or Copyright?

Jim O'Flaherty jim.oflaherty.jr at gmail.com
Tue Oct 24 15:13:02 PDT 2017


Xavier,

I appreciate your far more measured and respectful tone. Thank you for
honoring my request. I appreciate it.

Now, I disagree with the conclusion you drew. There is a huge gray area
around researching and producing software for the game of Go. And exploring
novel theories that may not ever be directly applied to software still
remains validly related to the computer-go forum. There was a time (prior
to 2007) where any sort of ANNs discussions were shot down as unreasonable
theoretical pathways for computer Go. And those discussing those
theoretical pathways received negative reinforcement (some quite harsh)
from members of this email list. I was one of the ones supporting ANNs
early on. So, I was especially sensitive to those less supportive views. It
turns out, the current solution pathway has ANNs dead center. So, those
prognosticators of the futility of ANNs and related theory were incorrect.
Thankfully, they were ignored and we have AlphaGo (and plenty of others)
using ANNs today.

The conclusion you can draw from this is: What may appear to be tangential,
ill placed, or merely distractive in a research vein doesn't mean it won't
pay off in some way eventually. It just means you might not be able to see
how right now. So, unless the research vein being discussed is actually
profane in nature, as long as it falls into the gray area of theory related
to Go which in turn can be used as theory related to the construction of
computer Go solutions, it appears to fit just fine on this list. If the
person holding the theory spams the crap out of this list, then we can
address that as a separate concern just like we did with another email list
member just under two years ago.

Again, I appreciate your respectful tone.


Thank you,

Jim O'Flaherty


On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Xavier Combelle <xavier.combelle at gmail.com>
wrote:

> "In the current time, computer-go discussion and research has a very
> high percentage of people discussing the side of mainly programs and
> programming but I belong to the very low percentage of people
> discussing mainly go-theoretical aspects of computer-go. With a higher
> percentage of the latter, there would also be more discussions
> resulting to something."
>
> Now you explained what you describe what you mean by go-theoretical
> aspects, which is your main area of interest,
> I feel like they are totally unrelated to the purpose of this mailing list.
>
> to quote the home page: http://computer-go.org/
> "computer-go: Discussion on research and development of software that
> plays the game of Go."
>
> Now that is clear, I understand why I always felt your intervention
> misplaced (because they were misplaced).
>
> Le 24/10/2017 à 17:00, Robert Jasiek a écrit :
> > On 24.10.2017 16:45, Xavier Combelle wrote:
> >> I don't understand what you mean by go-theorical aspects.
> >
> > Go theory is an ambiguous term and means everything from informal
> > ("Starting with a standard corner move can't be wrong.") via principle
> > ("Usually, defend a weak important group.") to formal (
> > https://senseis.xmp.net/?CycleLaw ).
> >
> >> and especially when applying to computer-go.
> >
> > Relating computer play / algorithms to go theory or vice versa adds
> > another layer of difficulty indeed.
> >
> >> To my knowledge the only theoretical (in a
> >> mathematic meaning of theoretical) approach of go is combinatorial
> >> theory and it leads to very few knowledge.
> >
> > Other mathematical theory with practical relevance is related to
> > capturing races (see Capturing Races 1 - Two Basic Groups, Thomas
> > Wolf's papers etc., endgame (e.g.,
> > http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/kodame.pdf and google for related proofs)
> > or will be published by me later (will be quite a lot and have
> > practical relevance, but you need to be patient). Research in
> > mathematical go theory requires much time because exactness is often
> > necessary and proving can be tricky.
> >
>
>
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>
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