[Computer-go] How many probes down the tree are necessary for a "good" bot?
nick at maproom.co.uk
Fri Nov 15 01:28:58 PST 2013
On 15/11/2013 09:13, Stefan Kaitschick wrote:
> When you do only a single playout, you dont even need a playout, just
> generate the first move candidate - voilá. :-)
> Closed sources are indeed regretable at this point.
> Before, it sparked a kind of bot war, and the greatest technical
> advances are always made at war time.
I don't altogether agree with this.
Around 1999, there was a friendly "bot war" between Chen Zhixing's
HandTalk and Michael Reiss's Go4++. It was fought by each seeking out
weaknesses in the other's joseki dictionary, and playing to take
advantage of it. The only benefit was that a few weaknesses in the
dictionaries got removed. The two programs got barely any stronger
against humans and other bots.
> But now that the top bots are kind of treading water, looking for the
> next breakthrough, it's truly harmful.
> And my feeling is, that the attitude has also changed on the
> "academic", open source side.
> I only know that this forum used to present really interesting ideas,
> but now that is seldom the case.
> Possibly the problems have become too technical for general discussion.
> But more plausible to me is, that programmers are trying to avoid a
> onesided disadvantage, and are discussing
> their ideas in private.
> Well, no use crying over spilt milk.(As I, admittedly, just have)
> On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Darren Cook <darren at dcook.org> wrote:
>>>> ... I'm going by the "Measuring program strength" thread (Aug
>>>> 3013) where people are getting 50% against GnuGo with 1K to 10K playouts.)
>>> Actually, in that thread Hiroshi was saying he only needs 350
>>> playouts, and Detlef was at 700. So it seems you're off by roughly a
>>> factor 10.
>> Yes, I was surprised just how heavy the Aya (and Zen) playouts must be.
>> We've almost come full loop, and soon the programs will be traditional
>> computer go programs doing a single playout ;-)
>> It is a shame the developer's skill is all dead knowledge (not open
>> source, no papers). :-(
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nick at maproom.co.uk
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