[Computer-go] JSON game format

Jonas Jermann jjermann at gmx.net
Sat Aug 18 06:18:36 PDT 2012


Hi guys

I don't know if this is the right time/place. But I wanted to mention 
that I developed my own gaming format to store store time-accurate 
recordings of go lectures/games together with optional media.

In that area SGF is certainly lacking. What I did was: I tried to keep 
as much of the SGF syntax as possible (i.e. "tried" to keep it backwards 
compatible) and break as few things/assumptions as possible.

For more details please check it out here:

https://github.com/jjermann/rgf

resp.

https://github.com/jjermann/rgf/blob/master/DOCS/RGF.txt

I really tried to think it through and also made a complete prototype 
that already works quite nicely (at least with firefox).

My decision to use an extension of SGF is:
- SGF is already very nice to store tree data, compared to e.g. xml/XGF
   or some other binary formats:
     o It can be edited by hand
     o It is small
     o Everyone/most (non-asian) softwares already use it, so
       import/export is easier and writing/adjusting a parser is easier
- SGF actually already has _almost_ everything I needed
- It is easy/easier to "enrich" an SGF with time sensitive data
- RGF is actually like a wrapper/container around SGF, so all old SGF
   editors can    still be used and can easily be extended for
   recording...

Essentially it was a pragmatic decision.

Of course it would be nice to have a modern replacement format. I very 
much like the idea of JSON, not so much the idea of XML. One just has to 
be careful that it is not dropped and forgotten like XGF!

Anyway, here I just wanted to present my format and offer my experience 
about how to do/handle recordings of games. I thought a lot about it and 
also about how to implement it (and what issues arise there).

For me RGF is to SGF like AVI/MKV (container/format) is to DIVX/MPEG 
(codec)... Essentially my prototype feeds some existing SGF editor "SGF 
and editing frame data" and similarly it catches all SGF commands and 
editings and stores those information in a big RGF container...

One main issue I e.g. ran into with this container approach was:
How to propagate meta-game information?

I would be curious what you guys think about it and how you would 
support game recordings in some future format...


Best
     Jonas

On 08/18/2012 02:01 PM, Don Dailey wrote:
> One of these suggestions come around every year or so.    It used to be
> that "we should use XML" and we would hear that a couple of time per year
> or so.
>
> Personally I don't care for SGF  but I'm a firm believe that if it's not
> broken,   don't fix it.     I suggest you simply build a tool to translate
> from and to XML and publish that tool.    There could be javascript and php
> versions of those routines and perhaps also java and other languages.
>
> I do appreciate json and believe it to be elegant and if this wheel were
> not already invented I probably would be in favor of json.
>
> Don
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 7:48 AM, Petr Baudis <pasky at ucw.cz> wrote:
>
>>    Hi!
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 09:07:19PM +0100, Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:
>>> SGF has rather limited metadata, JGF could standardise at least part
>>> of this...
>>> examples might include:
>>> Location: ie GPS or similar
>>
>>    PC[]
>>
>>> Timing of moves see javascript date object
>>
>>    BL[], OB[] etc.
>>
>>    I think the most obvious representation as JSON is a straightforward
>> syntactic translation from SGF, and a common chunk of javascript code
>> can serve as that... The next step can be to have an option to generate
>> SGF.json directly but I don't see a great case for that except for
>> optimization of particular webapp setups.
>>
>>                                  Petr "Pasky" Baudis
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>
>
>
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