[computer-go] Please have your bot resign, for your own good

[Don Dailey]

Erik van der Werf wrote:
> I'd propose something simpler:
>
> No time is deducted for pass.
>
> With this rule your program will only loose time when it absolutely
> has to respond to the opponents move. In most games the winning
> program can simply play until it has a sufficient number of
> unconditionally alive stones on the board and then pass forever
> without ever risking a loss on time.
>   
This is not manageable and is also subject to manipulation.    The
server could wait forever to see if a move might be pass.     The only
reasonable way to implement this is to allow a liberal time margin for a
pass move.     For instance if your bot passes,  up to 5 seconds is
"forgiven."   

I'm somewhat opposed to this idea.   The decision to pass is still a
"considered decision" and I don't see why pass should be treated
differently.  

Better would be some kind of victory declaration.    The program claims
victory - which means that it agrees that every move from now on (for
itself) is a pass move.     It would be the counterpart to resignation -
with the provision that you give up all rights to defend yourself if you
are wrong.  

- Don



> Erik
>
>
> On Jan 2, 2008 3:02 PM, Don Dailey <drdailey at cox.net> wrote:
>   
>> Of course it's also possible to implement the Fischer clock on CGOS.
>> Fischer clock is where you have a fixed time component (such as 5
>> minutes) but you also are given an increment - another fixed time
>> component that is added to your clock EACH MOVE.
>>
>> So it might be expressed as  "2 minutes + 5 seconds"  which means you
>> are given 2 minutes initially,  but you are also awarded 5 seconds per
>> move - whether you use it or not.    It is simply added to your clock.
>>
>> I've always liked this kind of time control.   It prevents games lost
>> due to mad time control scrambles.   It makes the games feel more
>> traditional (like the old days when clocks were not used) because the
>> pressure of the clock has been reduced (although not eliminated.)
>>
>> There are some problems with this on CGOS:
>>
>>    1.  I don't think GTP has  Fischer time mode.
>>    2.  Not traditional in GO.
>>    3.  Programs do not currently implement it.
>>    4.  It doesn't really solve your problem.
>>
>> The fact that it's not traditional isn't a factor from my point of
>> view,  I am progressive about positive change.
>>
>> It doesn't solve your problem because you would still be cheated out of
>> 2 seconds per move - although it might be much easier for you to deal with.
>>
>> It would be simple to handle the GTP issues.   If your program could not
>> handle Fischer time some modes could be added to the client to help you
>> manage it.    In the simplest case it would just report time remaining
>> and there could be modes that factor in the next N moves to this.
>>
>> - Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter Christopher wrote:
>>     
>>> I realize there are some legitimate reasons to have your bot play out
>>> the games on cgos until the bitter end.  Here I would like to present
>>> one reason why you may want to have your bot resign instead.  I live
>>> in the Philippines.  My ping from my computers here is usualy about
>>> .3-.4 seconds.  I do often put some bots on cgos from here, tend to be
>>> rated around 1600-1700.  Because of the long ping & the tromp-taylor
>>> rules, my bots often lose won games on time.  Playing from my computer
>>> here, I typically set a buffer around 45 seconds when the bot assumes
>>> the game is a won game & almost immediately plays filler moves.
>>> Nevertheless, with this buffer or even a larger buffer, the bot often
>>> captures massive groups, and at 2 moves per second (all network lag),
>>> the bot can't fill the whole board again & again, and if my bot passes
>>> & yours doesn't, that's also slow to fill the board.  The end result
>>> is that in your records, you may be testing your bot's new features
>>> and want to have an accurate elo rating to know whether it is working.
>>>  If your bot is playing my bot, and your bot doesn't resign lost
>>> games, you won't have an accurate rating of its new features.  Sorry
>>> for the inconvenience.  This is happening today quite a lot vs.
>>> challenger.  Some other days it's a different bot.  Just something to
>>> keep in mind.
>>> Peter
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> computer-go mailing list
>>> computer-go at computer-go.org
>>> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
>>>
>>>
>>>       
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>>     
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