[computer-go] chess/go for handhelds

[Ben Shoemaker]

First of all, I apologize for the "one word per line"-quoting in my
previous message.  It apparently has to do with plain/text, "Yahoo Mail
Beta", and firefox not playing well together.  (I have switched back to
"Yahoo Mail Classic" as a work around.)

--- Don Dailey <drdailey at cox.net> wrote:

> In response to Ben's post about Ogo not being significantly stronger,  I
> will present what I have found in my tests.
> 
> 1.  I never tested 19x19,  I can't say whether that is true or not.

I was most interested in 19x19 performance, but I tested on 9x9 as well.

> 2.  I hand tested 9x9 against AIGO at it's median level (level 3 of 5)
> and the match was lop-sided in Ogo's favor after 50 games.     It would
> be more lop-sided at level 4 and 5.   There is no comparison.

I didn't do any head-to-head comparisons.  I trust your results.  The
"significant" strength I was referring to was the ability to give me an
interesting game.  Even with handicap stones, neither program was able to
do so (I am 18kyu).  The real target would of course be a challenging 19x19
game with no handicap.  Strength of 10-15kyu would be nice.  1kyu would be
awesome.

> 3.  On older palm devices,  Ogo would be slow at level 5.   But on
> modern devices with ARM processors Ogo takes about 10 seconds at the
> highest level for 9x9.    That is for a Tungsten T3,  some ARM devices
> are a little slower.   (T3 is 400 MHZ)

I had a Palm V and a Sony Clie SJ22.  I tested at the highest level of each
program and found neither to be strong enough to be a challenge, even with
handicap stones.
 
> If you play both AIGO and Ogo,   AIGO may seem stronger because it is
> pattern based and does't do the MC scoring people hate,  but that's just
> an illusion.   People also though Eliza was smart  and understood things
> because it displayed sentences based on simple hard coded patterns.   

I did play both, and I didn't conclude that AIGO was stronger than Ogo,
just that neither was strong enough for me.  I did like that AIGO played
faster, but I would have probably bought a faster Palm if Ogo were strong
enough be challenging on 19x19.
 
> There are no Palm programs that actually play very strong,  so AIGO is
> likely a better choice depending on what you expect out of it.   It
> saves games and plays them back and it plays a pretty good move
> instantly - a nice feature to have in this instant gratification world
> we live in! 
> 
> Which is why I'm trying to improve Ogo.   I simply want it to play a
> better move faster.    If I could make it play significantly faster and
> significantly better, it would be pretty awesome as a toy program.

I totally agree with you.  A stronger and faster Ogo would be very nice. 
However, I think the Palm platform is fairly dead.  A smartphone with Linux
under the hood (as the iPhone has unix a la OS X) may be an easier and more
powerful platform for you to target.

> It's not clear to me that is even a good idea having a slower high level
> - because most people are not satisfied to play anything less than the
> "highest level."    It's a phenomenon the retail market takes advantage
> of,   many people are reluctant to buy anything less than the top of the
> line model if they can afford it.   Only the best for me!   I don't want
> the dumbed down version!

I agree here as well.  People want the strongest program they can buy, but
they want it to play nearly instantly.  Anything more than a few seconds
per move is too slow.  Most people want their handheld to provide a quick
game when they have a few moments to kill.  If they had more time, they
would play against GnuGo on their PC or a real person.

I think your ideas to adapt your program to play better with fewer
resources are certainly worth exploring and could lead to some interesting
insights applicable to your full-blown program.  I certainly don't want to
discourage you in your efforts.  I just wanted to chime in with my
experiences of Go on the Palm.

Ben.


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