[computer-go] 19x19 CGOS
Don Dailey
drdailey at cox.net
Thu Oct 25 13:40:19 PDT 2007
I would prefer 1 hour actually, but it would take a really long time to
get a substantial number of games in, so I think for practical reasons
we shouldn't go that far. Unless we set up a special server just
for Mogo vs ManyFaces. I could do that on my own computer.
I'm not sure what the status of the 19x19 server is, if it looks like
it isn't going to happen I have another option.
- Don
David Fotland wrote:
> most computer-computer tournaments have used 1 hour per side, and did 5 or 6
> rounds over 1 1/2 days.
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: computer-go-bounces at computer-go.org
>> [mailto:computer-go-bounces at computer-go.org] On Behalf Of
>> David Fotland
>> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 1:04 PM
>> To: 'computer-go'
>> Subject: RE: [computer-go] 19x19 CGOS
>>
>>
>> I have no problem with longer time controls. Many Faces 11
>> was tuned to play in about 45 minutes on hardware available
>> in 2000. It won't take advantage of any extra time given.
>> The global search is 1 ply with quiescence, and always will
>> always complete, and the local search sizes are fixed at
>> something like 200 nodes per search.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: computer-go-bounces at computer-go.org
>>> [mailto:computer-go-bounces at computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Don Dailey
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 11:53 AM
>>> To: computer-go
>>> Subject: Re: [computer-go] 19x19 CGOS
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi David,
>>>
>>> I argue that the matches should be longer, perhaps 30 minutes per
>>> side. They should more closely resemble time controls used in a
>>> serious competition.
>>>
>>> Here is the reason I say that. One could argue that with
>>> computers it
>>> doesn't matter, they do not need to be constrained as much
>>> by our sense of time - they do not feel pressure or get
>>> rattled if they play too fast
>>> and they don't get bored or lose focus if they play too
>>>
>> slow. I've
>>
>>> argued that way myself many times.
>>>
>>> However, the choice of time control, in my estimation, has a
>>> good chance of influencing the outcome, especially if we view
>>> this as a test of a strong commercial program versus a new
>>> experimental technology, which I think it is. Mogo is a
>>> program that clearly performs better
>>> with more time. I suspect that MFGO is a program that is close to
>>> optimal at 10 or 15 minutes. I can't say that for sure,
>>> perhaps you
>>> can give us your insights on that.
>>>
>>> In such a case what is "fair" depends on the point of view of the
>>> observer. If someone wanted to see Mogo dominate such a match he
>>> would consider short time controls "unfair" and the
>>>
>> opposite would be
>>
>>> true if one wanted to see Many Faces win. Of course I could be
>>> wrong, perhaps Many Faces is the one that would benefit more
>>> from extra time - but I'm working from the assumption that
>>> Mogo would benefit the most based on my own knowledge of how
>>> UCT works.
>>>
>>> Regardless of the time control used another issue is the
>>> selection of hardware. Doubling the computer power
>>> effectively doubles the programs
>>> thinking time.
>>>
>>> Having considered all of these issues, and also taking into
>>> consideration that this is a contest of sorts, it makes
>>> sense that we should testing at a level that simulates or at
>>> least approaches serious
>>> computer chess time-controls. Certainly no faster than
>>>
>> 30 minutes
>>
>>> per side. These are levels at which most humans will take
>>> the results
>>> seriously.
>>>
>>> In addition to this, it makes sense to know what hardware and what
>>> time-setting is being used. Many programs on CGOS were set to play
>>> very fast, often indicated their level in the name of the
>>> program something like "mogo4k" or something similar.
>>>
>>> So if we set a liberal time control on CGOS 19x19 we could
>>> publish the
>>> identify of the players and draw conclusion based on that. Mogo
>>> could be tested at several levels and/or hardware
>>> configurations and so could Many Faces. It's not difficult
>>> to set up a rotating script for
>>> logging off one bot and starting up another. (By the way,
>>> the right
>>> way to do this is to select the bot RANDOMLY, not to
>>>
>> rotate back and
>>
>>> forth.)
>>>
>>> The server does report the time each side spent calculating
>>> in the SGF files, although it's not reported on the web
>>> sites, so this is useful
>>> information if we are considering the scalability of
>>>
>> programs. My
>>
>>> feeling is that there is likely to be a crossover point -
>>> that MFGO will win at time-controls faster than this and Mogo
>>> will win at time-controls
>>> slower than this. That point may be beyond what we can
>>>
>> test, or it
>>
>>> may be testable on the CGOS server soon.
>>>
>>> By the way, I would probably argue for longer than 30
>>> minutes per side, but for a server like CGOS that would
>>> involve a long wait between
>>> matches.
>>>
>>> Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
>>>
>>> - Don
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> David Fotland wrote:
>>>
>>>> 10 minutes per side should be enough for Many Faces 11.
>>>>
>> Version 11
>>
>>>> has fixed search limits, and only does time management if
>>>>
>>> it runs low
>>>
>>>> on time. It can usually play a game in 10 minutes on the
>>>>
>>> computer I'll
>>>
>>>> use. It will be slower against Mogo since the games are
>>>>
>> longer and
>>
>>>> there might me more unsettled situations to read. If you
>>>>
>>> do add more
>>>
>>>> time, 15 or 20 minutes per side should be enough.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: computer-go-bounces at computer-go.org
>>>>> [mailto:computer-go-bounces at computer-go.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>
>>> Chris Fant
>>>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:27 PM
>>>>> To: computer-go
>>>>> Subject: Re: [computer-go] 19x19 CGOS
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I oppose more time per side.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/23/07, Christoph Birk <birk at ociw.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Olivier Teytaud wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.lri.fr/~teytaud/cgosStandings.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If someone wants to test it, the port is 6919 on machine
>>>>>>> pc5-120.lri.fr. 10 minutes per side. But only try it if
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> you want to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> take risks, it is almost surely not stable yet, and the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> connection
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> might be refused for an unknown reason :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am really curious to see MFGO, Crazystone and Mogo play at
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> 19x19. But
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I suggest allowing more time, at least 20 minutes per side.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Christoph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> computer-go mailing list
>>>>>> computer-go at computer-go.org
>>>>>> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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