[computer-go] Re: Interesting problem

[David Doshay]

I agree with your point that Japanese rules give an additional
advantage to the stronger player. I just see the advantage as a
natural extension of the advantage in the real world of being
more efficient in all things, including ending things. I also see
that advantage as dropping more rapidly than you do as the
level of play of the weaker player reaches some level ... perhaps
at 5k or so it is effectively zero.

I think that your comment about being forgiving of ignorance
is the most important point at this time, and looking forward:
how forgiving do we want to be with our programs? While the
desire is biased towards getting more people programming
Go engines, then forgiving ignorance and tolerating weak play
is good because it lowers the barriers of entry for new programs.
But at some point in time it is also a good idea to raise the bar
up to standards of acceptable human play.

I think our only real disagreement is when and where we raise
the bar. I think we could do it very soon in public tournaments.

Cheers,
David



On 3, Jan 2007, at 1:55 PM, Don Dailey wrote:

> I think this all comes down to pretty much one concept - Chinese
> is more forgiving of ignorance.   Everything else is just rules
> and it doesn't matter what rules you play by as long as you
> agree on what they are.
>
> And that's what I don't like about Japanese rules - I feel it
> give the stronger player an ADDITIONAL advantage.   The stronger
> player (at any level) will be smarter about when to pass and
> will effectively get an advantage for it.    At higher levels
> this advantage may approach nil, but it's there.
>
> It strikes me as odd that you get penalized for capturing a
> group.  It strikes me as odd that the opponent can just
> keep passing and rack up points against a player who does
> not know better.   From Chinese eyes, this is ludicrous,
> and it just seems like the Japanese rules tend to favor
> a more arrogant approach to the game - less friendly and
> very harsh on the weaker player (not weak players, weaker
> players.)
>
> In some kind of Chess matches the reigning champion is
> given an advantage, such as if the match ends in a draw
> he keeps the title.    I guess it is done out of respect
> for the stronger player and I just feel that Japanese
> rules respects the stronger player, looks down it's nose
> on the weaker player.